Matt Harrington 0:00

Hello everyone. Welcome to a Trade of Thought Podcast. I'm your host, Matt Harrington, and today's guest we have Martin Myers, Chief Strategy Officer at Grateful Care ABA and founder of Behavior Mastery and Flat Weekly. With over a decade of experience in ABA, Martin has held clinical and organizational leadership roles at Hope Bridge in Beerman ABA. He's passionate about helping make better decisions, improving ABA programming, and overall building stronger organizations. Martin, thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

I think my my experience is probably a lot like others, although we're, I think we're we're late enough now into the ABA journey that we're I'm starting to come across people who actually said, you know what, I wanted to be a BCBA from the get-go, but I didn't know what ABA was. And like so many individuals, and I ended up taking a position after I graduated with my bachelor's in psychology, working with kids with autism. I didn't know what ABA was. I mean, I was I was interested in boosting my grad school resume. I was gonna go for a PhD and uh take a year off in between, and uh lo and behold, I loved it. Loved the science, I've always loved working with kids, and so it stuck. And I said, you know what, this is what I'm gonna do. You know, as I learned more about it, as I learned more about the science, it was, you know, something clearly I love nerding out about, but there's that human side there is that that meet the kids and everything. So I it was very easy for me to to stick with it. And I don't think you could be a good behavior analyst without loving people. You know, this is the science of human behavior, and and I love people. And so I think it, you know, as we as I gradually progressed through my career, I found myself being offered more and introduced to more and more leadership positions, you know, heading committees and you know, piloting, you know, new programs at the companies that I worked for, you know, and eventually that transpired into management and regional management and things like that. And uh at the end of it all, you know, I always enjoyed that. And of course, we all know if we're behavior analysts, the same science is at play on an organizational level as it is, you know, on a kiddo level, you know. And so I've had a lot of fun still continuing to work in the science and still continuing to build relationships from a leadership and management perspective as well. So uh yeah, I think that's you know, that's basically it. It that's it's something I get jazzed about.

Matt Harrington 2:37

How do you find the application of the principles different as you've moved up in the organization or different approaches you take as you go up?

SPEAKER_00 2:48

I think one of the things that you have to be aware of is that you can't control everybody's environment perfectly, you know. And I think there's there's a relatively straightforward understanding of reinforcement when it comes to working with a kiddo in a sense that it could be the iPad or it could be that war game, or it could be that, you know, jumping on the trampoline. For somebody with you're you know, somebody who you're working with in a professional capacity, I think you always have to understand that their favorite reinforcers aren't going to be necessarily within the work that they do with you. They have spouses and they have kiddos and they have hobbies and things like that. And it's it's actually a healthy thing that works sometimes and the work they're doing for you competes with that in a healthy way and that it doesn't sit at the top of the list. Now we've worked with people who are super motivated, they're gonna be career-oriented, they're gonna go to the top, they're gonna be awesome. But I think the thing that stands out to me is that you know their work is going to be uh a source of meaning for them, but it's not gonna be all of the source of meaning for them. And I think where people get their wires crossed sometimes is where some people, you know, the the work becomes the source of meaning. And for others, it's it's one of the sources of meaning for them, you know, one of their main reinforcers. And so, you know, balancing that, understanding that, and and allowing, you know, allowing that lifestyle to exist and everything is a is a huge thing, I think, for for for leaders.

Matt Harrington 4:31

Do you find a good organization focuses on one of the two archetypes or has a balance?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

It depends, I think. You know, I think everybody talks about, you know, work-life balance and everything like that. You have to be able to go home at the end of the day. I think there's probably a little bit too much emphasis on, you know, bringing that unhinged emotion to work every day on behalf of the company that you're working for, versus understanding that we need people to be effective, not obsessed, if that makes sense. So great, you had somebody who's obsessed, somebody who's obsessed might actually be very, you know, come across some new strategies, might be very effective at their job, but obsession doesn't necessarily mean effectiveness. And so I think you lose the forest for the trees, sort of, if you start to, you know, push for obsession, push for somebody who's just going to absolutely drown them themselves in their work, you want to you want to push for effectiveness. People who who understand the core components of what goes into the job and make and makes themselves successful so they can continue to do it for the long term, you know, for you, and you can continue to promote an environment where they you make that enjoyable for them. And I I think that can, you know, people can get tangled up between the obsession and the effectiveness, I think.

Matt Harrington 5:51

Now speaking of obsession, perhaps, as we talk about your main gig to your side gig, where does tell us a little bit about uh behavior mastery, what it is, and and kind of what inspired you to create it.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Yeah, well, it it was obsession, you know. Uh it was and and it had to do with effectiveness too. But uh behavior mastery or bxmastery.com. Basically, it's a it's a goal bank with I think I have 4,000 targets and roughly 250 skill areas or whatever. And it's basically built off the idea of component composite analysis that every goal that we teach basically to a learner is a actually collection of goals. And and then that collection goals comes together to form a goal, and that the collection of goals forms another goal. And there's a there's a hierarchy basically of goals when you're trying to target something. So if you want to try the toilet training, you're not just target targeting toilet training. You're you know, you know that you have to teach a learner to sit down, you have to teach a learner how to tolerate going into the bathroom, you have to teach a learner how to understand when their bladder is full versus when it's not full, and maybe there's a man you have to teach in there. There's a there's a series of a massive series of of goals, of components to actually the toilet training goal in general. And then toilet training in itself contributes potentially, you could say, to a larger strata of goals like you know, being able to go to school independently, you know, and so if you want a kid out to go to school independently, that's a that's a kind of a that's a that's a huge one. Toileting is going to be one of those. So you can kind of see that there's this hierarchy. So I got deep into the generative instruction and generative learning and component compilers and analysis early on in my career, and then finally, you know, as I told you kind of when we were talking earlier that uh in between jobs, I was, you know, I had taken another position, but purposely taken a couple extra weeks off in between positions so I could build out kind of this goal curriculum, you know, the skill library. But the skill library is actually sequenced. It's it goes, you know, module by module, it goes um uh, you know, skill area by skill area. And all of that was really motivated, one by my obsession, but also having been in a leadership position at AVA for so long where I saw a lot of BCBAs sitting crisscross applesauce in the playroom at their clinics trying to come up with the next treatment plan goal, you know, trying to figure out why the current goal they were, they were using wasn't working, and only really having two choices based on what was available to them. They either plug in an assessment goal, which they shouldn't be doing, right? Or they leave the goal in and just hope something changes. Or I guess a third one would be they remove the goal, but they don't, you know, the how do they scale it down, how do they scale it up? That was really, really hard for them. And and I I you know I came to the conclusion something needed to be out there to help, you know, BCBAs understand how to scale you know their their targets and to something that's you know smaller and a part of something else, and then into something bigger and uh at a grander scale. So yeah, it was an obsession for sure, but you know, you know, it's it's been able to help a lot of people, so we're excited about that.

Matt Harrington 9:10

So with clinical and executive leadership, clearly you're deep still still deep in the clinical world as well as deep in the the executive. What do you find that most ABA organizations are looking or scaling patients account also keeping in mind quality care?

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Yeah, I I think, you know, I I think it's one of those things that scaling is the is the most I think the t most difficult thing they come the most organizations come across. You know, I think I think there's there's an element of you know listening to your people that has to happen more than anything else, you know. And so as you scale, you have to be paying close attention to what your clinical leadership is telling you, you know, and you have to be also really clear in where your values are as a company, so that way you can put you know whatever struggles you have up against those values and and make a judgment call basically on whether or not those, you know, whatever issues you're seeing, whatever trends you're seeing are consistent with that, because that's really gonna dictate a lot of that. But your people are gonna tell you that. You know, if you're listening to them, your people are gonna tell you, okay, here's where we need, here's where I feel like we're lacking, here's where I feel like we used to be this way and now we're this way now. And I I feel like that's not part of our identity. When I came here first, it was this, and now I'm coming here now and it's this. And, you know, when you start to hear those, have those conversations with people, and you start to hear that paying close attention to what they're telling you is the difference, is it's going to dictate how you scale. And it's also going to help you understand whether or not you got away from your core values and getting away from who you are as a company, you know, your your general core identity as a company. And so, you know, it it's an easy answer. It's a kind of a generic answer, but I think it's a necessary answer that can't be talked about enough is you just have to listen and listen to what they're saying is the difference. And so I think that's that's the thing that stands out out to me because that conversation is going to bring, you know, you're gonna find out two things. If somebody comes to you and says, you know, we were X and now we're Y, if you were never X and you were always Y, then what happened for them to think that you guys were ever X, right? And if they say, or if it's the other side of the thing and they say, you know, we were X and now we're Y, and you realize that, wait, we wanted to be X and now we're Y. You know, why are you Y? You know, and so um those, I don't know, that's a lot of algebra and that's a lot of X's and Y's, but the point being is is you know, you have to think about who you are at your core and and and be honest with yourself who you are. And then that way when people start to tell you you're not that, you explore that.

Matt Harrington 12:05

Yeah. And I think that goes into how as you scale, new challenges come up as well, not only with staff retention and and staff satisfaction, but also with client retention and client satisfaction. So as you've seen Grateful Care Aviate grow, how do they look at scaling up, getting new clients, getting new staff? What's working right now?

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Well, I speaking of values, it's always been about relationships. And, you know, I think there's an element, um, I think we've done a really, really good job, really good job in in making that the emphasis, you know, for our regional leaders, for our administrators, for our, you know, our our you know, our director level staff of relationships being the key point, you know, and that includes relationships in the community and things like that. And so uh I could I think of a few of our regional clinical directors right now that are just really good at developing relationships with the people around them, not just their staff members, you know, but their their families and in the communities and everything like that. And I think because relationships sit at the top of our hierarchy, our regional staff, staff in general want to be talking to other people about what they do, you know, and they're just generally motivated to do that. And so you find them very naturally, sometimes on their own accord. You know, it's not a not a grand marketing strategy as much as it is a just a general motivation environment for them to to to talk about how happy they are, whether they're a staff member or whether they're a you know a family, you know, or whether they're a staff member talking to a potential family or to, you know, a potential referral source or something like that. And so generating that positivity is that is has worked, you know, and you know, we value relationships, we value conversations, and and the people that we we bring on do too. So that means they're constant in the state of of connecting. And so that's worked real well for us. You know, we have good people that it it people see that when they talk to us.

Matt Harrington 14:10

Do you look for the right people on the front end, or do you trust your organization to train them to be the right person before they get into those leadership roles?

SPEAKER_00 14:19

We trust our organization. I think we've got some, like I said, with relationships being the center of it, you know, we value trying to connect with people and connect with everybody. And so you bring somebody on who might, you know, be be nurtured into a leadership role, for example, or a managerial role. We trust our company to not just train them, but to connect with them so that they want to want to do that, right? So I think there's that piece, and and that's been strong, it's always been strong with us because it comes, you know, it's one of our core values. But also at the same time, core values comes back to if you value relationships, you're bringing on people who value relationships, right? And so if your reinforcer is, you know, ongoing warm, you know, quality relationships with people, whether that be staff members or families or the general community, most of our regional leadership, for example, our managers that come in value that as well. And so the bridge to jumping from not knowing how to do a job is not that far if you're motivated, right? And and whatever happens in between, we can fix.

Matt Harrington 15:27

I love it. All right. Well, I think that is the perfect place to end it, Martin. Thank you so much for sharing with us your expertise and your time and your knowledge on all the different things that you've shared. And I really appreciate you being here.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Hey, thanks a lot, Matt.

Matt Harrington 15:42

This was a pleasure and uh love what you're doing here, so keep it going. Absolutely. You know, it's it's what we do best. We can't stop ourselves. Everyone, thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you next podcast.